Sunday, July 03, 2005

Parents article about China trip

My parents came to see me in Beijing this last April. When they returned home they wrote an article that got published in their church magazine! (Churches around here are way organized) Clicking on the picture should enlarge it enough for the text to be readable. Only in Swedish I'm afraid.


Det glada budskapet, nummer 2, 2005, p 14

The editor of the magazine has added following text under the picture: "Göran and Mari-Anne with their son Johan in front of Mao's Mausoleum". We are obviously NOT standing in front of the mausoleum, though we went to see the plastic doll earlier that day.


p 15

Update: Check out the comments to this post. Gives you perhaps one Chinese perspective you didn't have, or possible have had too many of (my case).

47 comments:

Anonymous said...

I do not understand why the west must impose their violent religion (i.e the stupid imagined jesus and his mother) on to the Chinese?

It is laughable to watch all these brain-dead Christians worshiping their childhood indoctrination all their lives.

At least China does not have the Christain biogots and racists.

Darwin bless you,
LEAVE US ALONE!

Johan said...

I don't think this is a big conspiracy from 'the west'. I for one don't participate nor support such a cause.

I don't think it is hard to understand that they want to preach it to other people. They believe that it is a good thing or even a duty to preach their faith to other people.

I don't think it is common that they impose their faith on anyone. They do not only preach it to the Chinese, but to all other people as well. Many Christian missionaries in China are by the way Koreans. Many Chinese in fact choose to convert by their own free will, even if it will cause them a lot of trouble. I believe they should be free to do so.

I think most Christians' interpretation of the Bible is not violent. I don't think Christians are brain-dead.

I believe there is a lot of racism and tons of bigots in China, and some of them are for sure Christians.

Part from that, I agree with you. Ha ha

So... what do you believe in?

Anonymous said...

Jesus Love!

http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/books/ferens/ch1.html

Throughout the nineteenth century, missionaries went "into the field" from a deep conviction that non-Christians needed to be saved from a fate worse than death.

British and American Protestants designated China as a "mission field" very early: 1807 is traditionally taken to be the date of "first entrance." By the end of the century, Protestant missionary societies were supporting over twenty-seven hundred white religious workers in China and as many "native helpers".

When studying an ethnic group, they tended to perceive a "lack" to be filled or a cultural difference to be modified. Once in Asia, missionaries had to resolve dilemmas about how much of the foreign culture they should change before it became Christian. Some were exceedingly attentive to local sensibilities and life ways; others worked to eradicate "paganism" at any cost. Resistance to conversion was frequently interpreted as "wiliness."

Because missionaries observed their subjects through the lens of evangelism, the orientalist discourse they constructed was ambivalent. On the one hand, to move fellow Christians to charity, they called up images of absence and lack, of vast spaces and innumerable souls deserving of attention. On the other, they filled those spaces with manifestations of vice, folly, and superstition, all of which could fortunately be eradicated through prayer and mission work.

Your website demonstrates the ancient feelings of Christians in the west. Hundreds of years after Christian missionary reached China and Japan; little has changed among those ignorant, stubborn, some times hateful, reach-outs.

Johan said...

I would like to know where my blog "demonstrates the ancient feelings of Christians in the west"!! That would be interesting.

Anyway, I'm afraid I didn't have the time to read the whole article, but I think I got the gist of it.

I don't agree with you. I think there is a huge difference in how most missionary work today. Just as there is a huge difference in people's attitudes towards other races and cultures from just 50 years ago, particularly in Western-Europe. This is possible a result from lessons learned from the colonial times (which, for your information, is seen here as something very bad) and WW2. There still exist racism and ignorance, but it is not the same magnitude as before. Sad to say it, but I personally have encountered more racism and ignorance in China than anywhere else I've been.

Rodhe-Maria is travelling around in very rural villages helping the women with health care. As you probably know, there is a great need for that in the Chinese countryside. I believe she has helped to improve a lot of people's lives. As far as I know she is very respected in those villages.

There are probably a whole bunch of nutty missionaries in China, but all the ones I have met have been very friendly people.

It would be interesting to hear about your encounters with Christian missionaries in China. Because you have met some, right?

I hope you realize that I'm not a Christian. I still support freedom of speech and religion.

Now, again, please answer where my blog "demonstrates the ancient feelings of Christians in the west"?

If you are able to do that, then I promise to rename this blog to "My ancient feelings of Christians in the West" instead of "A Swede in Beijing.

Wen said...

Good one baby, good one!

I have been always told that the Christians do what they do under the glorified cover for some actual vile purposes...But why would they do such a thing as to sacrifice their own comforts just to make others believe in what they believe? It seems to me they have to have so strong a faith in something themselves that they would make such sacrifice.

It might be true that they gain some credits for their life in heaven afterwards, it might be well said they were fools to have such faith, but as long as they do the good deeds (like helping people) that benefit the needed, and bring people ideas that they themselves believe to be truth, as long as they don't take up their arms to force the ideas on others...afterall, we all have the freedom of expressing our own thoughts and believes, with some intention to influence others.

Wen said...

By the way, as a Chinese, I feel more brainwashed by our own education than the Christian missionaries. Christianity or any other idea would well serve as alternatives that offer us diversified ways to view the world, life, human, etc. The more the better, not only Christianity, everything is welcomed to counterbalance the single ruling, authoritative, dominant, creativity-killing, foolmaking doctrines that assume and treat everybody like idiots.

Jesus Love! said...

“Where are thee who do not want me to be the king, bring them hence and slay them’all before me.” -- Jesus Christ, Luke 19:27


BTW, the proud Sweden White Christian: do you speak any Chinese at all? It is shocking for some total ignorant like you to say the Chinese are ignorant. You don’t even speak their language. You are the ultimate ignorant! Of course you feel the Christian missionaries are “good people”, because you are religiously biased! It is the fatal bias/blindness of the west.

If the EU does not discriminate against Chinese textiles and shoes, more Chinese will be lift out of poverty. What an irony! The greater policy is hostile and discriminatory. Then there are hypocritical Christian missions to pretend help. What a shameless and ignorant joke!

Christianity is not the solution to social well-being. The
proof is simple. Just look at the most Christian
countries, such as the US and Mexico (90+% Christian,
believing in Ghod). Gangster, rape, murder and other
violent crime-rates are among the highest in the
world.

Anonymous said...

Wen,

Do you understand that you will be forced to say "one nation under God" everyday in public schools in the west? In private religious schoold, you will be punished for not believing in God. Do you understand what kind of indoctrination that is? I think every Chinese need to come to the west to have a look themselves. So that they will not be fooled by westerners who come to China with a religious propaganda.

Johan said...

You don't seem to be a very sensible person. Is there possible something in your life that you are frustrated about?

I don't think I will bother to reply unless you start to write something that make any sense and stop making groundless accusations.

I will assume that you are the same person that has commented before. The tone seems to be similar.

For your information, I DO speak some Chinese and I'm NOT a Christian. Get it? NOT a Christian. That means that I don't take what is written in the Bible for facts.

For anyone else who reads this, the quote this person has supplied is completely out of context. It is from a parable that Jesus tells (Luke 19:11-26). It does not mean that Jesus want non-believers to be slayed before him as one might get the impression when only reading the quote. "The king" is not referring to Jesus himself.

There is a lot of violent and horrible stuff in the Bible. There is no need to try to make distortions. It is easier to find them in the Old Testament though.

What does EU has to do with this?

Find someone that actually believe that Christianity is the solution to social well-being, because I don't. So don't come around here to bitch about that. I think your so called proof of whatever it was you tried to prove SUCKS.

When I went to highschool in Pennsylvania 1993/94 they made the pledge, as most highschool kids in the States.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

Very few people seemed to care though. It was more of a tradition. Quite far from brainwash actually. I wonder what kind of wacko TV-channel you get your ideas from.

I know schoolchildreen in China has to say that kind of pledges as well. Their pledges of course include the Communist party instead of God.

We don't have anything like that in Sweden, and I believe we belong to what is referred to 'the West'. We don't have those religious schools that you talk about either.

You ignored my previous questions. Don't come back without answering them.

* Have you met any Christian missionary in China?

* Where does my blog "demonstrates the ancient feelings of Christians in the west"?

Johan said...

Hi Wen, my baby!!

Please keep us informed about the brainwashing when you enter that Catholic university in Belgium this fall, and what kind of punishment you will get for not believing in God.

Don't let them spank you, you know that is MY job. ;)

Anyway... I think I have wasted enough time on this stupid subject.

Jesus Love! said...

A Swede in Beijing Claimed - Quote –

"I know schoolchildreen in China has to say that kind of pledges as well. Their pledges of course include the Communist party instead of God." - A Swede in Beijing

Attention All Chinese: ATTENTION: please come see this showcase of western ignorance!!!!

I want to invite all Chinese here to testify "ARE YOU REQUIRED TO PLEDGE TO COMMUNIST PARTY EVERY DAY IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!"

Personally, I am never asked to pledge to anything. I know you may join the commy party only after you are 18 in China. Only if you apply and pay a fee, then you will have the right to join their meetings and pledge to that party. It is some kind of elitism, not for all school children.

Clearly, the Swede is fatally wrong due to his childhood cold-war indoctrination. What an ignorant he is!!! The sad thing is that they all think this way in the west.

The Quote is what a typical westerner belief about China. It is also based on his personal experience in the west. In the west, they indoctrinate children as hell.

Hey, stupid Swede in Beijing, we do not brainwash our children in China, unlike the Christian west.

As for Christian missionaries in Beijing, sure go to BICF
www.bicf.org You will meet tons of evangelicals dancing in Beijing. They meet in YanSha auditorium.

As for your interpretation of Luke 19:27 - well the whole Bible is a parable to some form. Luke 19:27 is a direct intimidation stated by the imagine jesus christ. It is for real, nothing untrue. You are clear defending the hateful and violent religion - Christianity.

I want to ask those Chinese toads, like Wen, who is following the west: are you able to get a clear picture by talking to masters of deceptions like this Swedish White.

As for Wen, you think all should be welcomed. But that very thought is against the western Christian ideology. After you spend years in the west, you will realize that you are not welcomed in the west. Only Christian whites are welcomed in the west. Then you will grow. You are in a very ignorant stage right now.

Johan said...

The pledges I was referring to in China are when pupils join the Young Pioneers (少先队员) or become a League member (团员).

My experience of this is when hundreds of schoolchildren gather outside their schools and shout pledges and march together. For a westerner that is a pretty amazing sight. Never seen anything like it. We don't have anything like that in Sweden, and they don't in America. There is no political education for so young kids, particularly not sanctioned from the school system. I know they don't do this everyday, and I didn't say they did.

I was trying to make a point that the pledges in the States hardly mean that they are brainwashed. If students in China make a pledge that doesn't make then brainwashed either.

I don't know that much about the Young Pioneers or schooling in China as a whole. I have never claimed to do that either. If I'm wrong, and very few Chinese students make any pledges, then so be it. Big deal?

To my understanding many pupils join the Young Pioneers when they go to elementary school, then later become League members when entering Middle school. This is voluntary, but most do it because of pragmatism. Then some will apply to become party members when going to University. No?

I've spent time at Peking University. There the students have to study "politics" and "military class". A part of the entrance test is also "politics". During their first summer break they are send out to the countryside to have military training. As I understand much of this is basically to learn the party line. That would be unthinkable around here. "Politics" around here is usually associated with having discussions and I think this is not the case in the education system in China. Maybe you have a different experience?

A little hint for you. If you walk around making broad groundless accusations and insulting people you don't know, people won't like you nomatter where you are and where you come from.

Anonymous said...

"we do not brainwash our children in China"
ah! that explains why you get EXACTLY the same answers when you stop random people in the street and ask questions about, say, the Japanese, the Americans, Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Incident, freedom of speech, political rights, Taiwan issue, Xinjiang, Tibet, economic development/disparity, superiority of Chinese culture... ;-)

Still, I already miss China...
Ceren

Hey Cereon said...

Cereon,

My argument would be exactly from your post. It seems the westerners are hard-coded with one version of the story when it comes to, say, China, the Cultural evolution, Tiananmen Incident, freedom of speech, political rights, Taiwan issue, Xinjiang, Tibet and economic development/disparity.

It is about the same when I stop white strangers in LA and ask about the race riots. I always get the same answer!

When you stop a Chinese stranger in the street, they certainly will tell you the same thing “I don’t know.” – NOT because they really don’t know, but because we are angry about these nosy and brainwashed foreign Christian haters. We don’t have the time waste to argue with these westerners who are indoctrinated since day one.

It is funny to see Tiananmen shows more often than the LA race riot in the US media. Funny isn’t it! Oh, BTW, there simply isn’t that much race tension in Xinjian at all! You really look like a wishful day-dreamer, Cereon. I think malicious haters like you need not come to our nation.

Reply:Johan said...

Ignorance again. First of all, go to college is a free choice in China. There are many universities that do not require millitary training. Also, compare to the composary millitary service policies in many EU nations, the Beijing Univesity policy seems like a joke!

Also, do you every read any textbook about "politics" from Beijing Univesity? You really need to spend the time and read it. It obviously is NOT what you thougtht!

Oh, by the way, Cereon, if you ask 100 person in the US if jesus is lord, 100 person will telll you yes. What does that tell us? You stupid brainwashed Christian idiot.

Johan said...

There is a lot of people that don't know much about China in other countries. Some are noisy and have very strange views on the country and should be criticised.

Others, like Ceren, has actually spend a lot of time in China, studied the language, attended university there, and has a lot of friends there. She is a person who is genuinely interested in the country. She, like me, doesn't know everything, but actually care to learn.

Still you choose to insult such a person, calling her a 'malicious hater' and 'stupid brainwashed Christian idiot'!? So childish and pointless.

If I see a very ignorant view of my country I would choose to inform that person on the difference, and discuss it. Seeing what you are writing just makes me sick.

If you want some people to argue with, then you should find the extreme right-wing racist neo-Nazis here in Sweden to bang your head against. They use the same kind of language and argument techniques as you.

Now, please don't come back. Take your insults and hate with you. They don't contribute to anything good.

Anonymous said...

"if the EU does not discriminate against Chinese textiles and shoes, more Chinese will be lift out of poverty"

You've got it backwards. If Chinese factory owners PAID THEIR WORKERS MORE then more Chinese would be lift out of poverty. The west doesn't set wages in China, the Chinese do.

Oh, and you might want to be VERY careful when you talk about western relgions being violent.

Anonymous said...

A black dress in Walmart - price $49.99.

The same piece shipped out of China - price $1.99.

How can the "Chinese bosses" pay their workers more?

In Europe, the hostile Christians burned Chinese business and yelled anti Chinese slogans. Is this not hatred??

2000 years clashes, massacres and racism in EU showed us the violent nature of Christianity.

Johan said...

Trade is about mutual benefit. If EU looses out it will of course not participate. I would expect China to do the same.

China can choose to trade or not with the EU. Turn to the Chinese leadership if you are unhappy about it. If I was unhappy about EU:s trade agreements with China I would bash EU before turning to a Chinese and whine. I don't mind bashing the EU construction anyway by the way.

The same piece shipped out of China - price $1.99.

Someone doesn't really get the free-market thing. The Chinese company can choose not to sell if the price is too low.

If Europeans didn't buy Chinese clothes then there would be a lot less "Chinese bosses" and Chinese workers. The living standard for a lot of people in China would be lower. The Chinese workers can choose to work or not in that factory.

In return consumers in the EU get cheap clothes.

In Europe, the hostile Christians burned Chinese business and yelled anti Chinese slogans. Is this not hatred??"

Sounds like hatred to me. But after extensive travels in Europe I have never seen anything like that. I personally know Chinese in several European countries. I frankly can't even recall seeing any news about it. You have any reliable statistics that shows that this is a big problem? Or just some anecdotal tale about some village somewhere sometime where this happened? Racism is a problem in Europe, but I doubt that it is a large problem for Chinese businesses though. Can you find something similar in size to the Anti-Japanese demonstration in Beijing this spring?

2000 years clashes, massacres and racism in EU showed us the violent nature of Christianity.

5000 years of clashes, massacres and racism in China showed us that people are people and Chinese are not that much different from Christians.

PS. Many people within the EU are very different from each other in many aspects. Many are not Christians and some are ethnic. EU is not 2000 years old.

Anonymous said...

Johan, to be honest, you are probably in the middle – not far right. Your version of Christianity is probably very different from the US evangelists. However, you should know the following news from BBC (24 September, 2004):

Several hundred people have taken to the streets for a second day in the Spanish town of Elche to protest against Chinese-owned shoe firms. Last week, the protest took a more menacing turn when two Chinese-owned warehouses and a lorry belonging to a Chinese entrepreneur were set on fire. The attacks caused damage estimated at hundreds of thousands of euros.

Anonymous said...

Oh, forget to mention, the protesters held banners reading "Chinese out" - others smashed windows.

Johan said...

I moved these two comments to this post instead since it was a reply to my previous comments here.

I'm not a Christian so I don't have an own version of Christianity. Using labels such as being "right" is not very useful I think. In Sweden that would mean something different than in the US.

I'm aware of the spectra of beliefs within Christianity and that the US is a much more religious place than Sweden. I've lived in both Catholic and a Protestant families there. In my view the absolute majority, like more than 99.9%, of the "Christians in the West" are very peaceful, tolerant people that are not trying to impose anything on anyone. Preach - yes, defend their belief - yes, impose - no, use violence - no.

The protests in Elche. That is right. I actually remember reading that article, but when thinking about it yesterday I thought it was about workers from northern Africa. I've spend a summer in Malaga, not too far from there.

I don't try to deny that there is a problem with racism in Europe. I still hold on to my opinion though and say that what happened in Elche was something extreme and does not reflect neither Spain or Europe as a whole. I'm willing to listen to other people's views though. Reading news without personal experience can give a pretty distorted picture. I still haven't personally seen any Chinese treated differently from other ethnic minorities.

Many people are getting angry because they feel a lot of jobs are lost to low-wage countries such as China. Still I would say that Europe is not more dangerous for a Chinese than for any other immigrant group or ethnic minority. That is, not much more dangerous than for the average Joe. Pretty safe in other words. Safer than smoking.

The real problems in Europe are much more subtle I think, such as having a higher barrier when applying for jobs. That applies to any ethnic minority and not particularly Chinese. It also depends on how accustomed the person is to the place.

Around here many employers actually consider Chinese to be good hard-working people. I think that perception has led to a lot of industries moving production to China instead of for example Poland or other places.

Wen said...

There're some Christians that try everything to convert a person, even though that person doesn't want to be converted, and that bothers people a lot. However, they would never use force to really impose their religion. You can choose to accept it or not. I'm not happy about a lot of strict doctrins and rules, but I think that religion has been undertaking reforms and that will continue to happen to adapt to the new situations in modern world. There're also other Christians that are open-minded and willing to listen to other opinions and worldviews without saying those things are evil. My colleague Tiphanie is one good example, and I was quite impressed by her open-mindedness and tolerant attitude. She is very open to talk about various religions in a very friendly attitude, even though she claims to be Christian.

Anonymous said...

And she thinks people will become Christians if they are meant to be, if God mean to save them. It's no use to force them, so she doesn't give a hand to interfere other's fate, because God will make it if that's His will. Not every Christian tries to impose their believes.
Wen

Attention Wen said...

Wen, You do need to go live in the west for a while before you waste my time and talking like an ignorant. I was like you 20 years ago inside China.

As for Tiphanie, she is definitely NOT open-minded. She claim if Ghod mean to save “them” then they become Christian … ask her what if someone is not “saved”, like Confucius or your grandma? Tiphanie will tell you that they will go to hell, been burnt and tortured for eternity. That is the foundation of the vile Christian doctrine.

Also try to bring up the racism and race riots in the US, see how she explain these to you. Oh, ask her “why the Christian churches are segregated in the west”?

On topics related to China, try to discuss Taiwan and Tibet with her. Try to discuss “one child policy” and “gay marriage” with her. Also ask her thoughts on the “One nation under Ghod” issue.

Ask her why would her Ghod punish his own creation? Is it not insulting to others for her to believe her Ghod is the ONLY truth while other’s Ghods are fake?

Anonymous said...

Come on, how could you know our conversations didn't cover all these? Why in the US? You don't even have the slightest idea where she's from! How could anyone guess about these things and assume they are true, whilst they are completely clueless?
It's really funny to read your clueless words, and amusing to see you are so sure about what you say, haha!
Wen

Wen said...

As for the "fake gods" thing, indeed the Christianity is not pantheism, and it denies the worship of other celestial figures. But actually the Protestantism even forbids the followers worship toward the statue or portrait of Jesus (you only see a cross hanging in the Protestant church, without the figure of Jesus) that's because it forbids the worship toward "idols" in general. The fact that they claim the other gods are evils is because people worship these idols, which the Christianity regards as fake and superstition. The shape of God can be different in every person's mind, He can be in the form of a Western old man (traditional image), or a bald Chinese man (buddha), or someone with islamic features, so why if it's only an idea, or I'm more inclined to believe is a kind of philosophy, a way of like, why can't God be shaped like a Buddha? It just doesn't like the fact that people go kowtow and burn incense to the man-made statues, it doesn't damn the people who share the same belief (heavenly rewards to good deeds) merely with different forms. Even you want to show your respect to God or people by burning incense, go ahead do it, you don't have to fear the damnation of going to Hell, because this simple act doesn't hurt anyone, and you can just feel relaxed by believing God is all-forgiving. I believe the original purpose of any religion is for the good, only it was gradually distorted by the many changes and artificial doctrines imposed by authorities in history, for their purposes, so I say it's nothing wrong with people's believes, and the missionaries by no means have any evil intension when they preach, and sometimes the Christians themselves feel doubt and uncomfortable with some of the rules, so I think any religion should be open to reform, and it actually has been always happening throughout history. Religions are always in the way of evolution. Religions are afterall for humans, for the humanity. Christianity is no exception, and it's unfair to condemn it just because it has been exploited by the powers in the past.

Wen

Anonymous said...

by the way, Tiphanie is a very friendly and pleasant girl, and her way of discussing matters like this do convince me she's an open-minded person, even she herself doesn't claim so. Am I wasting your time by replying all your comments addressed to me? Am I too ignorant to talk to you? Oh then I'm sorry, why don't you just ignore me? Just like if you think all the Christian stuff are bullshit, no one force you to believe in it. They have a right to preach, you have a right to choose, where do all the hates come from?

Talking about things in China. I forgot to mention that I'm using anonymouse.ws to get access to this blog. This kind of discussion wouldn't be possible under the approval of the government, and that probably explains why we people staying in China are so "ignorant", and the only way to get different information is to talk and listen to the 反动言论 from the "vile Christians" from the West, which is illegal. If it's so difficult to hear various voices and opinions from everywhere else, doesn't it make it very easy for one to believe in whatever different from the things they hear everyday?

still Wen

Wen 骗子 said...

You have been lying all the time. How sad! What is the difference between you and the Muslim Jihadees? You are all fighting for your religion!

There is the fundamental difference between our views. I fundamentally do not believe there is a God at all. God is the Santa Clause for adults. Christianity created serious social problems in the west. Thousands of years of religious and race clashes are unique – never happened in China. Go to study the history for your own sake.

I don’t see people should be free to proselyte. It bothers people. It threatens peace. Remember the Chinese Boxer Movement? Sadly, its Chinese name is the Peace and Harmony Society. We can see the drastic different views on the same group. It is because the Christian west is ignorant and arrogant.

Just like people should not be free to grab others buttocks or breasts. No one should be free to harass and repeatedly reach-out to healthy atheists. The peaceful Chinese society has welcomed all people for thousands of years. We simply do not want to become a bigoted Christian racist society like the US.

Because of the Christianity bias, the western governments grant a blind permit for reach-outs. This is very wrong. LEAVE US ALONE. STOP HARASSING CHINA.

Today the GDP per capital of China is 1 % that of the US. I would say I want China to remain stable to continue the development. There are plenty of examples of democratic chaos and failures. I would say when China’s GDP per capital reach 75% of the US, then it is time for China to waste some money and time for democracy. China simply cannot afford chaos at this time.

Clearly, democracy will not help any of the “have not”s. How democracy will help the poor farmers? You tell me.

Wen said...

will a baby infant ever have the chance to grow up when his parents always treat him/her like a little baby? when they refuse to believe they are able to judge themselves? one can never be a capable person if not given the opportunity to learn from hard lessons and grow up. if one is regarded and treated as a retarded, one would forever believe he/she is retarded (unable to handle democracy in this case), they don't even have the chance, because they are not trusted! and that trust for the citizens (especially for the peasants) is lacking (unwittingly or intentionally) by our government! don't you call it discrimination? why not democracy for poor chinese farmers? are you saying democracy is the privilege for RICH CITY PEOPLE ONLY? I'm fed up with all these excuses for unitarianism, this is only insulting to Chinese people's intelligence and capabilities!

chaos? if it's the consequence of having democracy, no well-organised and developed society would be now having it, but only the chaotic and poor societies, because democracy creates chaos, democracy means trouble! but why the US is 100 times richer than China? was it born rich? hell no! what heritage does it have? they were a bunch of poor European immigrants! they fought for it themselves, instead of blaming other societies for their own poverty, even that time it was used as cheap labor force factory and markets by the UK empire. the problem for us is we are so reluctant to reflect ourselves, we always try to find excuses and external reasons and attribute our own problems to others because that's always easier. but be alert that meanwhile, other people are observing their own problems and face them and improve. Refusing to examine and criticise oneself is the biggest obstacle to progress! God helps those who help themselves. It helped the US to become rich!

Johan said...

No one should be free to harass and repeatedly reach-out to healthy atheists.

I'm an atheist.


Did you get the message?

Aaaatheist.

According to you, that means that NO ONE should be free to harass and repeatedly reach out to me. When saying that NO ONE I was particularly thinking about you.

I'm an atheist, but unlike you, I believe in freedom of religion. I don't mind what religion other people has, no matter the color of a persons skin or the passport a person is carrying.

If a Christian comes and try to preach I might listen or tell him to go. If an rude anonymous person comments on my blog, I can choose to ignore it or not. No big deal.

There are as much violence in Chinese history as anywhere else. I don't believe that religions have caused many wars. It is the good ol' greed for power. Religion has just been an excuse. Guess there were other excuses in China.

The peaceful Chinese society has welcomed all people for thousands of years.
Yeah? You don't seem to be very welcoming. I guess you put that tradition to an abrupt halt with the "LEAVE US ALONE" in your next paragraph. And what about the "Peace and Harmony Society" you were reminding us about before? Forgot about them already? Luckily I do know a lot of friendly Chinese both in China and elsewhere.

You are more annoying and obnoxious than any Christian I have ever encountered. That must be quite an insult to you, no? And I can tell you, I've met many really, really annoying Christians.

It's great that more Chinese have a better life and higher living standard. I think a lot of that is related to foreign investment and trade. If the Chinese people doesn't want democracy, then that's their business. To me democracy means accountability. That can be pretty good when the power is corrupt. For a farmer with no money or power, that means he or she at least has a vote if an official is confiscating their land or if an industry is polluting their land. I can see more examples of corrupt authoritarian regimes leading to chaos then open and democratic societies. I do agree though that having a stable, undemocratic society is better than chaos, though I can't see that democracy should lead to chaos.

Anything else you wanna mix up this thread with, Mr Anonymous coward?

Now I will go back and continue to think about buttocks or breasts and how to grab them.

Anonymous said...

You guys know that farmers in China vote their local leaders directly, right? Chinese villagers are enjoying full democracy locally. As for Wen, I want you to think about Mexico, the Philippines and Colombia. These are all faithful Christian countries – 95% believe in God. Unfortunately, they are suffering from poverty and high crime rate – worse than China. Christianity and democracy do not equal wealth. Religion and political freedom do not necessarily bring your wealth. Haiti went from a Christian democracy to chaos and civil wars. Argentina is suffering after the collapse of currency as well as the collapse of one after another president. In these Christian democracies suffering poverty, people are without food, water and killed in the street everyday. Indonesia switched to democracy a decade ago, are they better of today? As for the propaganda of the so-called US wealth, obviously you never come to the US. In the US, the top 5% multi-billionaires have 95% of the wealth. You won’t ever see those rich people in person – they are behind high walls in gated neighborhoods. Ordinary Americans are as poor as you can imagine – they don’t even have enough money to go to a restaurant every week. One in every five American children do not have enough food to eat. Unfortunately, the western media or Hollywood movies never show you the poverty in the US. You really should listen to what I said. You will realize what I told you today after you lived in the west for a long time.

Johan said...

I have attended a lecture about local democracy in China, read some articles, though I have no personal experience. From what I heard it is very limited. In a great majority of the cases there is only one candidate, the local party official. In other cases there has actually been a different guy, but in many of those cases the real power has still been within the party. When there is more than one candidate, they are not allowed to make election campaigns. On election day the candidates will usually hold a speech were they promise to do their best, and usually there is not more than that. The result is that people just vote for the person they personally know best.

All media and education is controlled by the party and no opposition is allowed. If that is what you call democracy, then I agree that it is not a good idea.

Maybe you have better knowledge, but that is what I have heard during a lecture at the embassy in Beijing. From what they said, there is quite a lot of free both domestic and foreign research about this, and the problems are well documented.

I find it remarkable that at the same time many Chinese say that the country is too uneducated and undeveloped to have democracy, the most uneducated and poor are the only that have some form of democracy. I believe that only a small minority of Indians and Indonesians want to go back to having an authoritarian regime. Same in Mexico, the Philippines, and Colombian. That is up to them to decide though, not me. Many have fought and sacrificed a lot to obtain it. If you don't even want it, then you won't get it. Don't worry, the regime in Beijing won't give up their power anytime soon.

I agree that Christianity and democracy do not equal wealth. I also agree that religion and political freedom do not necessarily bring you wealth. Has anyone said anything else? You are just rambling on on your own.

What is "Christian democracy"? Never heard of it.

I have been to the States. There is poverty there and a large income gap. The poverty in China though, is on a completely different scale. The US is by any measurement much richer than China and that will probably be the case for many generations to come. China is quickly becoming the most unequal society by any standard. Those exclusive suburban neighborhoods that you mentioned are quickly becoming the norm for the richer in China. China is really picking up the worst from the US and I think that is sad.

You somehow fail to recognize that the US in many aspect have been very prosperous and the people there doesn't seem to want to have it any other way. Particularly not the way China has it. Very few Americans run off to other countries because of poverty or oppression.

Anonymous said...

I would strongly disagree that the Chinese people want “Christian democracy”. Yes, democracy is a result of Christianity and western culture. I am glad that you no longer pretend to be a Chinese woman – because obviously your understanding of China is coarse to say the best.

Chinese (poor) farmers are the most pro-communism group in China. The only people ever brought them any good is Mao and his party. You need to go to talk to them to understand that they are also the most anti-western group in China. They have been like that for 5000+ years. If western racism cannot be changed soon, why you think the Chinese majority farmers can be changed, any time soon?

The fundamental problem of western visions for China is their severe ignorance about China. Should you understand China fully, you will realize what a laughable idea “democracy” is. Why should anyone believe the lying politicians? Why should not every politician lie? Democracy is based on the childish personal trust between the sheep and their preachers.

On one hand you claim you stand for “freedom”, on the other hand EU directly discriminate against Chinese economic interest - EU halts Chinese sweater imports.
“The European Commission has discriminatively blocked imports of sweaters made in China, after their imposed limits on imports were breached a month after a quota system was agreed. China was only permitted to export 69 million sweaters to the EU from 11 June to the end of the year. But the Commission said it had stopped issuing import licenses after 12 July because China had hit its limits.”

What an irony! Aren’t you the persons claiming freedom? You are also the persons blocking freedom! Why do you even bother to preach your childish political system in China? We learn from what you do in real! You are lazy local-protectionists. You believe in nothing but your own interests.

Johan said...

Could you please explain how democracy came from Christianity? Somehow I thought it came from Ancient Greece or something.

Believe me, I am VERY SURE that Wen is a Chinese woman. You are either weird or stupid.

Why should anyone believe the lying politicians? Why should not every politician lie?
I agree on your scepticism about people in power. Power do corrupt people, whether they are Chinese or White Christians. That's why I think they should be held accountable every now and then.

Democracy is based on the childish personal trust between the sheep and their preachers.
No. It is based on the constant questioning of the authorities. Freedom of speech is a pretty important part of that.

Should you understand China fully, you will realize what a laughable idea “democracy” is.

Did you also write:
"You guys know that farmers in China vote their local leaders directly, right? Chinese villagers are enjoying full democracy locally."

Are both these comments yours? How am I supposed to make any sense out of it?

You need to go to talk to them to understand that they are also the most anti-western group in China. They have been like that for 5000+ years.

Was it you that also said:
"The peaceful Chinese society has welcomed all people for thousands of years."
So this peacefu Chinese society was until about 6000 year ago? Then something happened around 5000+ and you and the Chinese farmers became unfriendly?

On one hand you claim you stand for “freedom”, on the other hand EU directly discriminate against Chinese economic interest - EU halts Chinese sweater imports.

What an irony!


No. What absolute bullshit.

I'm not Mr. EU in person nor have I made any such general statement such as to say that I believe in “freedom”, without making it clear what kind of freedom.

If I say that I believe in freedom of religion it doesn't mean that i believe in a complete unregulated market. For most people I think that goes without saying.

Again, trade agreements is about mutual benefit. There is no trade agreement where one side thinks it is loosing out. Sorry about the sweaters, but it is really up to EU to decide. The Chinese government decides what markets China wants to keep shut. Quite a lot more than EU for example.

Why do you even bother to preach your childish political system in China? I don't. It is up to the Chinese themselves.

We learn from what you do in real! Sounds smart. To learn stuff. Great.

You are lazy local-protectionists.
In comparison to what? China?! Check again.

You believe in nothing but your own interests.
Thank God for all the compassion coming from you then.

Dude, leave my other posts alone. I don't want to have your rude rants in other places.

Anonymous said...

You hinted that you do not believe in a complete unregulated market. Then, why you believe in complete unregulated religious freedom?

Everyone here can see that you do not give a damn about the death of the innocent Muslim-looking Brazilian man.

Then, why do you care So Much about the religious freedom of the Chinese?

That is because …

Johan said...

You hinted that you do not believe in a complete unregulated market. Then, why you believe in complete unregulated religious freedom?
Eh? Why? Market regulations and religion is not really related. You know, like apples and oranges, if you know that expression.

Sure there should be limits. There should of course be limits on how a person acts in a society. That is usually assumed when talking about freedom of religion. You either misinterpret on purpose or you are rather stupid.

Everyone here can see that you do not give a damn about the death of the innocent Muslim-looking Brazilian man.
What the fuck does that have to do with me, my blog, what we have talked about, or anything? I think everybody think that was a tragedy, or have you seen anyone thinking what happened was something good?!

Then, why do you care So Much about the religious freedom of the Chinese?
It is really up to the Chinese to fight for that right. I stated my opinion.

That is because …
As I said. I don't have that agenda.

So what do you think that you can achieve by writing unfriendly rants on other people's blogs, making general sweeping accusations and insults?

Anonymous said...

Johann: "It is really up to the Chinese to fight for that right.”

Why is religious freedom a "right"? The right to be mentally imprisoned? The right to be brainwashed?

The only thing we Chinese need is the freedom from religion, ESPECIALLY THE FREEDOM FROM CHRISTIANITY. Thanks to westerners like you, we are losing our freedom way too fast.

Johan said...

Why is religious freedom a "right"? The right to be mentally imprisoned? The right to be brainwashed?

This is so stupid. If you don't understand it, I will spell it out for you. Now read carefully:

Just because you are free to believe in a religion doesn't mean you have to believe in any religion.

I am free to worship any religion in this country, but I don't.

The only thing we Chinese need is the freedom from religion, ESPECIALLY THE FREEDOM FROM CHRISTIANITY.
You already have that. Nobody is trying to take that away from you.

It is the religious people that are in prison-camps in China, among them Tibetan monks, Christians, members of Falun Gong, and Muslims.

Thanks to westerners like you, we are losing our freedom way too fast.
Exactly what is it that you can't do because of me? Please answer that!

Religion is something human-kind have in common, all races, all continents, all throughout history. You are a moron to insult all religious people around the world.

Anonymous said...

Well done, you pretending face of religious tolerance is blown away.

Your statements clearly show that you see all people NEED to be under God - the Christian version.

Quote: "Religion is something human-kind have in common".

Absolutely not, I have explained this to you earlier. I have also showed you where you can see evangelicals dancing in the Chinese capital - nevertheless you still faithfully rant Quote "It is the religious people that are in prison-camps in China, among them Tibetan monks, Christians, members of Falun Gong, and Muslims."

Those are absolutely not true. Those are your childhood church indoctrination. Those are the hatred and lies put onto you by your faith.

It is not China's problem, just like it is not Evolution's problem. It is the shameful Christian hate indoctrination.

When westerners like you grow up in Christian churches listening to anti-China bashing, the lies are firmly burnt into your brain. You see them as truth until you die.

Johan said...

Well done, you pretending face of religious tolerance is blown away.

Sheezh. Man, you got me. That pretending face just blew away.

Your statements clearly show that you see all people NEED to be under God - the Christian version.

Clearly? Read it again. Where did I say so?

I have also showed you where you can see evangelicals dancing in the Chinese capital - nevertheless you still faithfully rant [] ...

The only churches allowed to exist is the ones that are approved by the government, like the one that I visited together with my parents.

Most churches are illegal underground churches, but we didn't think it was worth the risk to visit any of those.

It is easy to find numerous accounts on priests, monks, and church members that have been imprisoned. Search well-respected organizations as Amnesty International, Human Right Watch, or basically any international press. Well, perhaps not Chinese, or North Korean news.

When westerners like you grow up in Christian churches listening to anti-China bashing, the lies are firmly burnt into your brain. You see them as truth until you die.

Much of this seemed only to have taken place in your head.

Since China was a closed country until the 80s there was actually little influence from China here. Since there was little influence and basically no way to travel there people didn't care all that much. Many people here have a positive image of China, thinking of friendly people with many tradition and an old culture.

That is of course until they bump into your kind and they another impression.

Actually, when you said that the farmers in China were the most anti-western in China, it actually struck me that they are the ones with probably least chance to get to know a Westerner. So, why do you think they have that attitude? They haven't come in contact with any Westerner, still they are, as you put it, anti-West. I suppose that the government controlled media and education would be the only channel or exposure of the West. If it is like you put it, then why do they have this attitude?

I tell you, people around here are not anti-Chinese. Most my family members have friends that are Chinese. Swedish Chinese, Chinese from Mainland China, and Chinese from other places. There are several Chinese families in our little town and that is nothing strange about that.

Anonymous said...

The west and their “human rights” watch-dogs are proved to be highly biased. As for the anti-west sentiment/resentment of the Chinese farmers, that dated back to the Christian colonization during the 100 years of humiliation period. The sentiment has absolutely nothing to do with the CPC government. It is very different from what you have been told in the west. You have been constantly fed with anti-China hatred – it is just you do not realize it at all. As for FaLunGong, I find the Chinese treatment of the atheist group is far better than the US treatment of the Branch Dravidians.
http://www.dabney.com/wacomuseum/

Anonymous said...

Politically motivated allegations on Chinese religious freedom are abundant in the west, promoting westerners like you to “visit churches” in China. The western logic is actually quite dumb. Since China is considered an evil communistic nation, they must persecute the Christians. As a disguise, you claim you are also concerned about the Muslims or other cults – like the FaLunGong.

However, if you look at the Chinese society, the Muslims are deeply integrated into the Chinese society – the only difference between Hui and Han Chinese is Islamic faith. Then let’s look at your society, Muslims are clearly segregated into ghettos and harassed by white cops.

Western news reporters and human rights activists are unwittingly or intentionally biased both politically and religiously. Look at the societies in your own eyes. Go to the YanSha Auditorium to witness the Bible waving Christian reach-outs in China.

Truth speaks for itself.

Johan said...

The west and their "human rights" watch-dogs are proved to be highly biased.

Any source is of course biased. The ones I mentioned are independent on any government and are well respected by many. I would be interested to see what evidence you are referring to, and where they were "proved" to be highly biased. My guess is that you won't reply, as you usually do.

When I say international media, I didn't only mean Western media. I suppose you won't believe any source anyway, so it doesn't matter.

As for the anti-west sentiment/resentment of the Chinese farmers, that dated back to the Christian colonization during the 100 years of humiliation period. The sentiment has absolutely nothing to do with the CPC government.

Anyway, didn't you just say the anti-west sentiments dated back 5000+ years? (I think that was in the comment after the one with "The peaceful Chinese society has welcomed all people for thousands of years" )

I strongly suspect that the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) controlled education and media has a role, but that is only my opinion. I find it strange since a wast majority of Chinese families have never met a Westerner, and even less been mistreated by one. I can understand many Chinese feel angered when hearing about what happened during the colonial times. I also think most people learn about that during their education and through media. No?

It is very different from what you have been told in the west. You have been constantly fed with anti-China hatred – it is just you do not realize it at all.

Incredibly that you know what I have been told. Well, you don't.

You really think we have been fed with "anti-China" hatred here? China was a closed country for almost fifty years and hardly let anyone in nor out. China was hardly on the map. It was never a threat, it is very far away and very closed. There would be no motivation to do so. Same goes for any country in whole of Asia. India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and so on. But in these cases common people have been travelling to these countries for many decades and there is a better general knowledge.

You can say that people here don't know much about China, but hardly for being constantly fed with anti-China stuff. You should also know that you just proved yourself of knowing basically nothing about people here. I'm not anti-China, and I think it is hard to find anyone around there that is.

As for FaLunGong, I find the Chinese treatment of the atheist group is far better than the US treatment of the Branch Dravidians. http://www.dabney.com/wacomuseum/

Ok. Is this your way to agree, by referring to other bad things elsewhere?

I don't know the circumstances behind the tragedy in Waco, but I doubt that the outcome would have been different if that took place in China.

Johan said...

The western logic is actually quite dumb. Since China is considered an evil communistic nation, they must persecute the Christians.
I don't think many consider China to be communist anymore. Only in the name. I think the description "bureaucratic capitalism" is better. I've never heard about that "logic" you talk about, nor do I believe in it.

As a disguise, you claim you are also concerned about the Muslims or other cults – like the FaLunGong.
I'm not a Christian. Why should I be particularity concerned about any particular religion.

Most missionaries in China are, as I said before, probably Korean.

However, if you look at the Chinese society, the Muslims are deeply integrated into the Chinese society – the only difference between Hui and Han Chinese is Islamic faith.

Ok. So when you say "The only thing we Chinese need is the freedom from religion", where does it put the Hui?

When you wrote "Absolutely not" in reply to my statement that "Religion is something human-kind have in common". What did you mean?

All your scornful talk about religion, does it apply to the Muslims in China?

Anyway, this talk about integration in China is contradicted of what I have heard from Xinjiang for example, or Tibet. I also heard about sever riots between Hui and Han groups, for example in Henan/Hunan this spring.

My personal experience says that Han Chinese are rather suspicious towards other ethnic minorities. In Beijing particularly towards people from Xinjiang. I might be wrong, but that is my impression.

Then let’s look at your society, Muslims are clearly segregated into ghettos and harassed by white cops.

Yes, there is segregation here. Nobody made nobody move to the same place though. I think many immigrant groups actually choose to live together. There is a debate whether if or how the society should try to more actively encourage integration.

Western news reporters and human rights activists are unwittingly or intentionally biased both politically and religiously.
Who aren't.

Look at the societies in your own eyes. Go to the YanSha Auditorium to witness the Bible waving Christian reach-outs in China.
I don't care how they practise their religion. They do it here as well and that is their business. I respect their right to have their own faith. It doesn't bother me at all.

Truth speaks for itself.
Nice slogan. You like slogans?

Anonymous said...

The 100 years of humiliation is between about 1830 ~1930. It is a recent memory. Due to the resentments of foreign invasions and the irresponsible behaviors of the queen Cixi, the farmers organized large-scale grass-root anti-western anti-Christianity movements.

I know what you are told when you were a child. In Nordic nations, public schools openly teach Christianity moral. Just in cases you don’t know, one of my closest friend Matti is from Finland. You also grow up listening to the horror stories of Communism.

As for anti-China, are you not mouth-fed with the “Free Tibet” movement in Europe? The problem is that these seemingly innocent movements are actually funded by some government in the cold-war propaganda era.

Well, as for the freedom from religion. I think Hui children should have the freedom from religion. It is essential human rights. It is an universal human rights. All human beings need the freedom from religion. I don’t see where the conflict is as you are trying to suggest.

You have mentioned the most recent well documented propaganda AP news about *hundreds* of Chinese died in an *ethnic clash* between Hui and Han. What pissed us off is that they never broadcasted a correction after they learned the news was fishy. It turned out that only 6 people died in the county in that month. The incidence is triggered by a traffic accident when a 6 year old girl was run over by a new taxi-driver. It is not about ethnicity. Further, based on the western truth, Chinese will abandon or murder their daughters due to the one-child policy. How come there is such a huge fight over a daughter?

Answer, the west is fatally wrong about China and the Chinese culture.

Johan said...

As much as I enjoyed this flame-war, I'm afraid I don't have as much time to waste as my opponent. Considering that he does this to a number of other blogs as well, it must be almost like a full time job for him.

Perhaps his studies in New York (according to his IP adress) is really boring and he's afraid to walk out of the computer lab to face the anti-Chinese white christian haters on the streets outside.

I will only reply to attacks and ramblings from people that have a sence of humour from now on.